ATV Riders Forum > Sport ATV Model Information > Honda TRX 450R ATV Information > ever heard of tire shaving???
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trx450r ryder
04-24-2008, 07:28 PM
hey i saw in the quad magazine at the weston beach race someguy shaved the side of his maxxis razr's and made a impresive sand tire out of them like their was only tread down the middle ...........how do u shave a tire ??????
pro-rider46
04-24-2008, 07:38 PM
im not a specialist on this, but i think it is a machine that does it. or maybe like a wire that gets hot to melt through stuff like they use to take of windshields
bluebaron
04-24-2008, 07:42 PM
Its a tire groover. They heat up a metal blade, they you start taking off rubber.
http://www.cometkartsales.com/store/tools/images/tiregroover.jpg
GPracer2500
04-24-2008, 07:52 PM
I use the exact unit pictured above. Works alright. I mean, the results are acceptable but the groover doesn't output enough heat (250w I think) for what I try and do with it. It works but it's a lot of time consuming labor to take lbs of rubber off. 500w or more would be better for me since I take off long swaths of rubber.
I took 5lbs of "unnecessary" rubber off these sand sharks. That's 5lbs per tire. And I was able to customize the paddle blade height to get the traction where I wanted it. It turned a tire that I didn't like at all for my application into a tire that performs well.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1822/p11900840fa.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/391/p11900864qk.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5609/p11900793mo.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6854/p2110177mediumzx7.jpg
The first (and only, so far) set I've cut turned out kinda ugly. What you see pictured are the best looking sides. I didn't start with the right blade width and did a lot of experimenting with technique.
My next set should be easier to do and look nicer because of what I learned on the first go-around.
GPracer2500
04-24-2008, 08:06 PM
The panel on the right was my first attempt. By the time I made my way around to the last panel I was doing better. Point is, the learning curve is steep. If you're just taking off some knobs, no biggy. If you're doing something more radical don't expect your first tire to come out all that great.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3554/p11900931ii.jpg
By the time I finished the second tire I had the blade width sorted out and was pleased with the results.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/2414/p9040069dj4.jpg
The tires started out like this.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/8931/pc050014kb9.jpg
TRX450RACER174
04-24-2008, 08:09 PM
I'm no expert on tire shaving but from the looks of the pics i think there awesome my only ? is do they need to be equal in weight or close to the same weight.
GPracer2500
04-24-2008, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by TRX450RACER174
I'm no expert on tire shaving but from the looks of the pics i think there awesome my only ? is do they need to be equal in weight or close to the same weight.
If they're close they're fine. Those sand sharks ended up a few oz different. BUT they also started out a 5.2oz different before I even touched them. I've weighed a number of different paddle/wheel combos and they usually don't weight exactly the same.
TRX450RACER174
04-24-2008, 08:21 PM
I dont ride much sand Glamis a couple times a season but those have that custom look and with the weight savings you get taking 5lbs off the better the bike will run not carrying the extra weight on the rear tires very interesting i might have to experiment on a set of moulded sand tires i have damn you.
maddmatt02
04-24-2008, 11:23 PM
so you saved 5 lbs off each? 10 total, anything to the fronts?
I heard once(in reference to a car though) that every pound of rotating mass at the wheels is like 7 lbs of stationary weight on the vehicle itself.
I wonder how much truth that has when applied to a quad.
if you could get 2 lbs off each front, 14x7 would be like 98lbs.
Im gonna have to test this out when i get some paddles.
trx450r ryder
04-24-2008, 11:36 PM
hey gp racer that looks sik ill have to try that wit some sand geckos or somthing where do u get the tool????
GPracer2500
04-25-2008, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by maddmatt02
so you saved 5 lbs off each? 10 total, anything to the fronts?....
I run those on an '85 ATC250R so I've only got 1 front. :D And no, I didn't mod it. 20 years of wear has it worn down plenty. ;)
http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/7122/croppedic4.jpg
But I would do it do a set of dune specific front tires. I bet my Dune Tracker front quad tires have 2 or 3 lbs of rubber they don't need. Probably not as beneficial as working over rears though.
The weight savings did make a difference.
For the first ride test I had about the same paddle blade height. I did cut the blades down but since the carcass "went down" the blades had to have some height lopped off too. So the first test was mostly just weight reduction. They spun up faster and held a tall gear better. Still too much traction though. So I started cutting the blade height down in stages until they would spin enough to hold 5th up Oldsmobile Hill. Actually, the conditions have to be just right to pull fifth there. I didn't cut the blades down any more for fear my launches would suffer. But when conditions are right I can compete with my buddies on much newer machinery....
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/Dunes/P2240018Medium.jpg
....On Banshee Hill at Dumont (or most flat drags) I can compete (or win) against that same competition on most every run. It's ALL tires. Well, not really all tires but tires can easily make the difference between winning/competing and getting your doors blown off.
A junk tire is night and day from a good tire. As soon as I realized that, I started cutting (since I don't have $450 for the tires I really want that come already comp cut).
The paddle blades are currently about the same height as a Skat-Trak Glider blade. The paddle/wheel combos went from 17lbs 6oz to 12lbs 9oz (each) after the final blade shortening.
I probably shouldn't be sharing my go-fast secrets :devil: but since comp-cutting your own paddles is an arduous, messy, and time consuming task, I'm not too worried about everyone suddenly showing up at the hill with faster tires. ;)
GPracer2500
04-25-2008, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by trx450r ryder
...ill have to try that wit some sand geckos or somthing...
If you've got some Geckos laying around, I'd highly recommend giving them the comp cut treatment. Those tires are stupid heavy with way too much traction for good performance in a sand drag of any length (in Glamis sand anyway).
maddmatt02
04-25-2008, 10:06 AM
can someone please tell me how too much traction is abad thing? I rode on geckos once, then switched to those gbc sand sharks. then a buddy had some spare skat trak edges and those were the best, but even the itp's were better than the geckos. but I just thought I liked the other tires because they got better traction, never thought I would have liked them more because of less traction. Ive only been to the dunes twice though so far, but my 300 is almost done, my 450r will be here soon and I moved down to AZ so I am pretty close to dumont and glamis so I should be going alot more often.
anyone know if the paddles on kenda dune runners are way too soft and will fold over? I like the price on those alot.
trx450r ryder
04-25-2008, 12:13 PM
how is to much traction a bad thing???:confused:
TRX450RACER174
04-25-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by trx450r ryder
how is to much traction a bad thing???:confused:
My experience in sand is to much traction robs power from the machine it's a balance between getting the right amount of paddles by allowing the engine to rev higher you keep the engine in the power band.
.
In the dunes there is definitely such a thing as too much traction. On a dirt trail or motorcross track, it's probably a rare situation where you've got too much.
But paddle tires in sand are capable of generating sooooo much bite that it can overwhelm the engines power. You don't notice it so much in lower gears. But when your climbing a long sand dune and you feel the engine start to bog, forcing a downshift--that's a situation where less traction would increase your speed. If the engine can keep those tires spinning and not loose RPM then you'll keep your speed up or even accelerate. A paddle tire spinning in the sand is still generating tons of forward momentum. That's different than hard packed dirt (or most other surfaces) where when you break the tires free you loose most of your forward momentum. Paddles in the sand aren't like that. You want them to spin some. And you want them to spin fast--that means 4th and 5th gear.
Next time your at the dunes check out the paddles being run by the really fast guys.
You might be surprised how few paddles many of them are running. When it comes to paddles, more is not always better. If you rarely get out of 3rd gear, shy away from the monster hills, and just want to pull 10mph wheelies next to camp all afternoon, that's fine (no bash) and you probably should have unspinable paddles for that. But if you want to race up a dune, you need something different. In my experience, most people are overpaddled and don't even know it.
maddmatt02
04-25-2008, 08:34 PM
what would be a good paddle for a 300ex? I rode a 330 (P&P, cam, bumped cr, etc, but it was pretty beat) but it had 8 paddle geckos and going up banshee hill in winchester bay, I ended up climbing it at like 3 MPH in 2nd gear. my girls YFZ with sand sharks I was going up it in 4th and accelerating but it has this little jog to the left a few feet with tree roots/stumps so Id drop to 3rd there and then I could accelerate after it but not hit 4th, but the jog is close to the top.
however I did have enough bite to then lift the front and ride on the rears the rest of the way up. so if the tires had less traction I might be able to get back into 4th after that jog?
GPracer2500
04-26-2008, 12:36 AM
On your 300, I couldn't say for sure what's best. 20x10x8 6 paddle Glider maybe? Or maybe an 20x10x8 5 paddle Hauler? Those are pretty expensive tires though. Most any 6 paddle would probably be ok but I'd much rather underpaddle than overpaddle.
One thing you can do is cut some height off the paddle blades of an 8 paddler to better suit it to a machine. You won't loose much weight but customizing the traction of a paddle is probably the single most important thing. Most people probably already have what they'd need in their garage--utility blade clamped in some vice grips, a torch to heat the blade, and a steady hand. If you've got the time: cut and test, cut some more and test, etc etc. Pretty soon you'll be rapping out 3rd on the same hill that required second before.
Geckos pretty much blow in my experience. I've ridden the 6 paddle 18" version on a Blaster, the 21" 8 paddle version on a Warrior, and the 21" 8 paddle on a Rap700. On the little bikes they'll get you around fine but that's about it. They just rob too much power from machines that are already hurtin' for more power. You end up crawling up those long steep hills in 2nd at a snails pace--just like you said. You need less traction so the engine can spin those tires. On the Rap700 the Geckos still hurt the top end to a noticeable degree. The Raptor's power hid the "problem" well but when raced against a nearly identical Raptor with better tires the difference was clear.
maddmatt02
04-26-2008, 01:49 AM
oh, the 330 is my girlfriends sisters, it used to have awesome power and when Id drag the YFZ, Id actually almost hold it thru 3rd then the YFZ blew it away, I think it was one tooth down from stock? not sure though. but that was when it was her dads, then before it became hers it was the "kids" quad, they rode that thing around and almost never shifted, and the airbox popped back off the frame or something so the carb boot came off the box and sucked who knows how much sand, so it was alot weaker when I took it up the hill.
the geckops that were on the 330 were the 21" 8 paddles, they came off the 460 stroker that got a bent frame out there. that bike spun em fine though!
however my 300 is stock, old engine built out of 3 different engines, fresh hone and rings though, UNI/ full DG, no lid, 400 carb.
I am going to do the 385 kit though with the 400 sleeve, probably 11:1 and a hotcam. thats about all i will do to that engine since I will be buying my 450r sometime this year. gotta save the money for that bike, since a fully built 300 wont touch a 450 anyways.
have you ever ridden gbc sand devils or kenda dune runners? they are both pretty inexpensive.
GPracer2500
04-26-2008, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by maddmatt02
...have you ever ridden gbc sand devils or kenda dune runners? they are both pretty inexpensive.
I've ridden Sand Devils on a 400EX. Their not a bad tire for the price. I own a set of Chen-Shin Dune Hoppers which are I believe are identical to Kenda Dune Runners.
They're alright too. The Runners/Hoppers are 22 inchers. That's not a bad size but may require gearing down. They make my 250r feel geared too tall compared to my cut Sharks.
All those tires are good candidates for comp cutting.
04-26-2008, 03:25 PM
I've seen some pretty sick asymmetircal designs shaved out of turf tamers for racing purposes.
tooney
04-26-2008, 05:17 PM
Hi,
Wow I was suprised that you guys had even heard of Weston Beach Race over in the USA:macho
The main reason that we shave the sides off the front tyres and only leave the centre tread is because when we go down the 1 mile long straight each lap there is quite alot of standing water which when you have a full tread tyre causes aquaplane and some worrying moments:eek2: ,shaving all the outer treads of made a big difference to the handling.
Hope this goes a small way to helping answer your question.:)
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ATV Riders Forum > ATV Riders Mechanical Section > ATV Steering & Suspension > Cutting your own sand tires....
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View Full Version : Cutting your own sand tires....
GPracer2500
01-10-2007, 11:24 AM
Has anyone cut their own sand tires? I'm thinking along the lines of what Sand Tires Unlimited does with their Brats. Comp cut Brats will actually show some threads here and there they are shaved down so much.
I'm thinking about using one of these....
http://www.cometkartsales.com/store/tools/images/tiregroover.jpg
...to cut down a set of Sand Sharks I have (20x11x8). They're way too heavy at 17lbs 4oz each (tire&wheel).
Has anyone done this? Advice? Opinions?
300EXrider356
01-10-2007, 08:30 PM
Sooo like cutting off the knobs on regular tires to turn them into sand tires?:confused:
JOEX
01-10-2007, 09:29 PM
I don't recall ever hearing about this.
..
400exrider707
01-10-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by JOEX
I don't recall ever hearing about this...
yeah... more info please!
GPracer2500
01-11-2007, 12:26 PM
Some paddle tires have rubber removed from the carcass of the tire for weight reduction. Sand Tires Unlimited Padla Brats start out as a regular molded paddle tire similar to Sand Sharks, Sand Stars, Sand Snakes, Sand Devels, Sidewinders, Dune Runners, or any other molded paddle tire. Most tire manufactures call it good and there's your tire. STU "comp cuts" or "play cuts" their Brats for weight reduction. They shave away unecessary rubber on the carcass between the paddles. This extra step is part of why STU Brats are so expensive ($400+ w/ wheels).
Not a great picture, but you can see the side-to-side lines on the carcass from being cut down.
http://www.sandtiresunlimited.com/graphics/PB_big.
jpg
Skat-Traks achieve weight reduction a different way (one I can't/won't do). They've got that wire-brushed look. Skat-Trak takes an old knobby tire, cuts off all the old knobs, buffs the carcass down to the desired level, and welds on their paddles. They're available in three different buff levels--standard buff, bead-to-bead buff, and tripple buff (heavy, lighter, lightest).
I've recently become very aware of the performance differences between various paddles due to weight. I always figured lighter was better but never realized just how big the difference was until I did some back to back testing with different paddles.
I've got two sets of SandSharks and they're both (mostly) junk to me. Their just too heavy and leave way too much performance on the table. So I'm going to try to "comp cut" them and turn a crap tire into a good performing tire.
JOEX
01-11-2007, 10:26 PM
Interesting... How much weight do you think you'll be able to remove?
GPracer2500
01-11-2007, 11:51 PM
5 lbs per tire seems like an awful lot of rubber.
...but that's what I'd like to get from them. That would get them down to near 12 lbs each (tire & wheel). I may decide to remove part of every other paddle.
My goal is to come close to duplicating STU comp cut Brat performance. A 21x12x8 comp cut Brat on .125 rims should weigh ~10lbs.
The groover is on it's way so we'll see what happens.
400exrider707
01-11-2007, 11:55 PM
The buffed tires you speak of are called vulcanized tires if Im thinking of the same thing.
Pretty interesting stuff with the grooved paddle tires, so simple I'm surprised you dont hear more about it.
JOEX
01-12-2007, 12:01 AM
That may be possible. In the pic posted it looks like 5 swaths taken between each paddle? 1-2 oz for each one? Just guess-timating :p
Good luck and let us know how it works:cool:
triple b
01-12-2007, 12:07 PM
Hey GP
I can appricate and understand why you would what to save weight.
But the Sandtires Unlimited tire you are showing has had accrual paddles removed to customize the tire your application and and save money on production costs not for weight savings. The way I understand it from a few years ago is the Sandtires Unlimited has one mold with three different paddle sizes. For example there will be 7) 1 " tall paddles for a 400, 7) 1 1/4" tall paddles for a stock 450, and 7) 1 1/2" tall paddles for a modified bike. (Note: the number of paddles and highs are just for an example and my not represent the accrual paddle tire) They just shave off the unwanted paddles for what ever tire they need in stock. The comp cut or play cut you refer to. That way they save money on moulds
GPracer2500
01-12-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by triple b
Hey GP
I can appricate and understand why you would what to save weight.
But the Sandtires Unlimited tire you are showing has had accrual paddles removed to customize the tire your application and and save money on production costs not for weight savings.
The way I understand it from a few years ago is the Sandtires Unlimited has one mold with three different paddle sizes. For example there will be 7) 1 " tall paddles for a 400, 7) 1 1/4" tall paddles for a stock 450, and 7) 1 1/2" tall paddles for a modified bike. (Note: the number of paddles and highs are just for an example and my not represent the accrual paddle tire) They just shave off the unwanted paddles for what ever tire they need in stock. That way they save money on moulds
Hmmm. I looked closely at a set of STU comp cut Brats last weekend and there's no doubt they had weight savings in mind when they shaved the carcass. Some spots were cut so thin you could (barely) see cords.
The Brat is a "new addition" to STU's lineup (I think they've been around for a little bit though). They come in 6 and 9 paddle versions with a comp cut or a play cut. I don't see how they could make a 6 paddle version starting off with a 9 paddle and keep the paddle spacing even. Maybe it was different a few years ago?
I can see a sand car paddle with 30+ paddles having paddles removed to suit the application.
I think their sand car tires are STU's bread and butter product....
http://www.sandtiresunlimited.com/graphics/16PT_big.jpg
Whatever the case, STU comp cut brats are the lightest paddle tires I'm aware of and I'm pretty sure they don't get that way by accident.
triple b
01-12-2007, 03:07 PM
I have no dought that STU has weight saving in mind and cutting production cost when they produce any tire in the line up ATV or Car.
I have not seen the BRAT nor have I been to the sand dunes in a in the last 5 years so many things have could have changed but from my experience in the past with STU that is the way they did it. One mould different cuts and yes you could see the cords sometimes
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A four-wheeler is an SUV by definition, which means that tires for a ATV are the most important part that ensures its flotation.
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If we consider asphalt, then everything is clear here: the grip is excellent with a large contact patch (PC). But off-road is a separate issue.
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For such a road, you need special rubber with a pattern with long blocks.
