ATV Riders Forum > Sport ATV Model Information > Honda TRX 250R ATV Info > welding on cases question...
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jcs003
04-28-2009, 05:32 PM
i have a hair line crack on my engine case near where the swingarm pivot point sits.
can it be welded with the motor assembled?
will heat cause issues in the tranny??
or should i epoxy it and let it be???
05LSR250R
04-28-2009, 06:26 PM
You should be able to get away with Tiggin it right in place! But only if you have a skilled person doing it!Is there oil behind the crack as it sits right now?
jcs003
04-28-2009, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by 05LSR250R
You should be able to get away with Tiggin it right in place! But only if you have a skilled person doing it!Is there oil behind the crack as it sits right now?
no oil. it is one of my spare motors that i am going to use in my hybrid. i heated it for a minute or so with a propane torch to confirm the crack wasn't a blemish. does a tig use less heat than that?
05LSR250R
04-28-2009, 06:36 PM
Tigs use very low heat! Thats why there so desirable.
jcs003
04-28-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by 05LSR250R
Tigs use very low heat! Thats why there so desirable.
that sounds good. i was a bit worried about using the torch, but that is the only way the crack would "show it self" to where i knew it wasn't just an imperfection.
05LSR250R
04-28-2009, 06:43 PM
The crack doesnt run across the gasket area does it? Sometimes you have to find the end of each crack and then drill a small hole at each end of it! That way the crack wont run on you! I would recommend it!
jcs003
04-28-2009, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by 05LSR250R
The crack doesnt run across the gasket area does it? Sometimes you have to find the end of each crack and then drill a small hole at each end of it! That way the crack wont run on you! I would recommend it!
it is only on the left case where the swingarm recess is.
behind the sprocket.
brian350rx
04-28-2009, 06:55 PM
tig welding it will use more heat than a propane torch - as long as there arent any seals close to it you'll be fine.
and anytime you weld a case or something that has held oil - the oil will pull to the surface when you weld it. clean it as well as possible before hand!
jcs003
04-28-2009, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by brian350rx
tig welding it will use more heat than a propane torch - as long as there arent any seals close to it you'll be fine.
and anytime you weld a case or something that has held oil - the oil will pull to the surface when you weld it. clean it as well as possible before hand!
about what would this cost?
regg187
04-28-2009, 07:50 PM
I had a case welded a few years ago, off the bike and it was 20 bucks, so I'd guess about 50 now and on the bike , unless you find a 'friendly welder' , I'm sure one of your buddies isn't gonna have a TIG at home.
thank god I found a new friend who welds at a shop that builds A-arms, my stuff gets done for beer now!!!
Swiper77
04-28-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm not the best tig welder ever but I have welded cases before and I would NOT weld on the cases unless they are stripped down and tore apart and cleaned with preferably Braklean or some good solvent to remove as much oil as humanly posible. Good luck trying it on the bike but I highly doubt you will get a decent looking good quality weld without tearing it down.
jcs003
04-28-2009, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Swiper77
I'm not the best tig welder ever but I have welded cases before and I would NOT weld on the cases unless they are stripped down and tore apart and cleaned with preferably Braklean or some good solvent to remove as much oil as humanly posible. Good luck trying it on the bike but I highly doubt you will get a decent looking good quality weld without tearing it down.
it is a hairline crack and i want to nip it in the bud. thanks for the advice i will keep it in perspective when it comes to an engine.
Swiper77
04-28-2009, 08:49 PM
To prep the case to weld regardless you will need to grind out where you will be welding to get penetration since aluminum welds nothing like steel or stainless. There is no need to drill a hole at the end of the crack that is more for plastic than metal. But you will need to feather out the area where the crack is for 2 reasons one to remove any foreign material and to give more surface area to lay the bead to. If you have someone weld it for you you might recommend Rockmounts Neptune fill rod it works extremely well.
jcs003
04-28-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Swiper77
To prep the case to weld regardless you will need to grind out where you will be welding to get penetration since aluminum welds nothing like steel or stainless.
There is no need to drill a hole at the end of the crack that is more for plastic than metal. But you will need to feather out the area where the crack is for 2 reasons one to remove any foreign material and to give more surface area to lay the bead to. If you have someone weld it for you you might recommend Rockmounts Neptune fill rod it works extremely well.
i looked at their soldering products. neptune s/ss seem the way to go. but it may be getting expensive at this point.
IcutMetl
04-28-2009, 10:12 PM
Drilling a hole at either end of a crack is more for plastic than for metal? Done it on metal plenty of times when I couldn't get a crack to stop propigating, especially on cast iron. It's an old machinist's/dieworkers trick from way back.
I personally think it would be sketchy to weld a case when on the bike. Cast aluminum itself is tricky enough to weld w/o porosity, and cast aluminum that's been in contact with oil.
..well that's just nasty, even if preheated. Whoever said to clean it well is absolutely right...it can't be clean enough. Your welding shop will sell aluminum cleaner, which is nothing more than hopped up acid. I used to use industrial toilet bowl cleaner on mold bases in a pinch. If it's anywhere close to a critical component, I'd be leary, but I'm not the motor guru here. Good luck!
trx310R#24
04-28-2009, 10:21 PM
jb weld it its not worth all the bull*sh-it of welding. i mean im all for making things look nice but like i said not worth it.
Aceman
04-28-2009, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by trx310R#24
jb weld it its not worth all the bull*sh-it of welding. i mean im all for making things look nice but like i said not worth it.
Yeah, listen to this guy. He must know what he's talking about, it's clear a cracked case is purely cosmetic and can be fixed with with something half-@ss like jb weld.
I have a better idea, save your bad advice for working on your own broke down pieces of chit and I'll remember to never buy anything from you. Deal?
To the OP:
I've had a similar crack welded also. I'd suggest cracking the cases to fix it. I might even be inclined to leave it until the next rebuild if it's only a hairline crack too. The weldor that did mine had to tig it, then grind the weld away because it pulled all the impurities out of the cast aluminum and then reweld it. It looked great when it was finished.
jcs003
04-29-2009, 02:46 PM
thanks for the help guys. swiper77 sent in the right direction. i am ordering rockmounts "neptune ss" soldering rod and a friend that welds for a living is going to do it. it can be done with low heat and warping and seal issues are null.
86 Quad R
04-30-2009, 01:48 PM
i've heard nuttin but goed things about those rods.............. be sure to post some pics of the results.
:cool:
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ATV Riders Forum > Sport ATV Model Information > CanAm DS450 & DS650 ATV Information > Cracked case
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View Full Version : Cracked case
comander420
11-05-2009, 12:27 PM
So I looked on the back of the engine near between the sprocket and rear mount and there is a hairline crack. Has anyone else had this happen and what did you do to fix it, buy a new case or tig weld it?
jjames/jlawson
11-05-2009, 05:49 PM
We have a motor for sale ???? Cheap......
Thanks
Jackie
draygarcia
11-05-2009, 09:41 PM
how cheap is cheap
ZX11
11-05-2009, 10:45 PM
I know the cases can be had online from OEM suppliers for $540. That gets you both sides. I didn't see just the right side listed.
The problem is getting the 2010 versions which are not supposed to crack.
I checked around since I didn't get the long term warrantee for my 08. Post how you wind up fixing the problem.
TNT
11-06-2009, 12:10 AM
Post a PIC of it I'll tell you how to fix it if you want. I just need to see the exact area not a real close up of the cracks.
BCS Performance
11-06-2009, 05:49 AM
Well unfortunately this is a problem that the DS does have. There is a lot of flex in the chassis in the back down by the pivot area which causes a little stress in this area. There is a fix that is coming that will cure this problem right now. As for now what everyone in the New England area has been doing is putting a couple of layers of JB weld on the case. Now I know this sounds crazy and like a hack but believe me this will get you buy until the fix is available. We have been testing a couple of different things to cure the problem and have been quite successful.
Now as far as JB weld goes you will be fine for as long as you own the machine with just that. Like I said this will get you by without hurting anything until the fix is available. You would not want to buy new cases and have the same exact thing happen.
If you are looking to buy cases though, we do have them in stock.
blaster99
11-06-2009, 07:48 AM
mine cracked, I put some jb weld on it to just get me through a weekend... this was in august, and they case is fine. If you look at were its cracking, even if it does crack all the way through, the swing arm is going to stay on the quad, so the jb weld is really just preventing and oil leak.
TNT
11-06-2009, 08:34 PM
Best way to fix this is shotpeening with a ball peen hammer lightly, after surface grinding the area. This is what you do for gouges in metal too to keep them from cracking. Anyone cares to know why if so read further.....
See hairline cracks occur from fatigue on the surface in tension (pulling apart).
When you shotpeen a concave in the surface it goes into compression on the inside of the hole and tension internally, the compression instead of tension on the surface keeps the tension away that started the crack to begin with. The internal tension created by the shot peen deep in the part is not a problem since cracks don’t start internally. The grinding for deeper cracks will cold work the metal and strengthen it prior to shotpeening. .
Sorry JB weld won’t cut the mustard! :D
comander420
11-06-2009, 09:17 PM
would tig welding it work? Welds are stronger than the base material.
TNT
11-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by comander420
would tig welding it work? Welds are stronger than the base material.
Stronger only at the weld but you put a heat cycle around the weld that weakens the base metal. Again, shot peen the weld and surrounding area to relieve internal stress and your good to go!
ZX11
11-06-2009, 11:36 PM
So there is a lot of flex in a pyramid aluminum frame? haha.
I guess the intro videos from can-am were off base.
does the JB weld help the area before it cracks? Mine hasn't cracked yet but the postings are indicating that it will.
I thought the 2010 cases were the solution. But now it sounds like they will crack also.
comander420
11-07-2009, 09:06 AM
look real hard, mine just looked like a casting mark but when I look real close I can see it is a crack. Mine cracked with less than 8 hours on the quad.
TNT when you say peen with a hammer are you saying just tap the area with a ball peen hammer and cold work it? I'm just afraid to knock a hole in the case.
This winter I think I might just have a buddy lay some welds around that area
TNT
11-07-2009, 10:39 AM
JB weld will do absolutely nothing in the case of bonding surface cracks due to high levels of surface tension. Might make it worse.
ZX11 - The pyramid extruded AL cross section is very strong compared to castings and weldments other quads use; doubt you see many cracks in those areas that’s not the issue.
All frames flex according to the Modulus of Elasticity of the metals used. It’s VERY difficult determining the overall load case on the quad, often times when you place a strong section in the frame assy it can cause problems in other locations. As much time as is spent determining loads from test data, stress-strain gages and computerized NASTRAN models, still the loads that were used in the model will need to be developed further from all the field testing and different riders/tracks.
To do this thoroughly, you might wonder, would require hiring 100’s of different riders putting them on 100’s of different tracts to get the loads model you design to correct. As you might guess the cost to do that in pre-design would be too great to the end user so you release the design to the public as most quad frames are, and let the after-market industry handle it which BCS is and has, incorporate the squawks at the next OEM design change…it’s done in automotive, aircraft(to a less degree), most industries.
Not everyone will experience the issue, just depends again on many factors. 2010 frame design we hope will address the load dump into the engine.
Commander - Don’t beat the thing to death lol; all you want is some minor surface indentations. Yes! To cold work and put the surface in compression! A layer of JB weld once the cracks are closed and in compression might not hurt to hold down the tension, flatten it out and make it look nicer cosmetically.
:D
blaster99
11-07-2009, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by TNT
[B]JB weld will do absolutely nothing in the case of bonding surface cracks due to high levels of surface tension. Might make it worse.
If you read my post, I said the reason for JB weld was not to keep the cases together, it was to stop the oil leak caused by the crack.
TNT
11-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by blaster99
If you read my post, I said the reason for JB weld was not to keep the cases together, it was to stop the oil leak caused by the crack.
It won't last and one things for sure your cracks will grow, it cant take the pressure. You'd still be better off shot peening to close the gaps then put a layer of an epoxy based resin that takes compression better.
Theres some pretty strong aircraft grade sealants on the internet that do a much better job than JB weld at sealing if thats all your worried about. This stuff we use is incredible strong. I'll look at the spec when I get there later and post incase you all and BCS ever find a need. I just used a thin layer to bond in some shim that mated two big commercial aircraft barrels and it held up, about 10,000 psi. It's an air sealant too. Crazy glue I tell ya!
But yeah I will scarp any aircraft part that has a crack even a toilet paper holder, but can shot peen gouges just to give you an idea and I know this is not aircraft but a crack is crack once it starts it's not if but when it will open up all the way.
:D
ZX11
11-08-2009, 04:43 PM
So yesterday my case was fine in that area.
Today I have a crack in that area. It isn't leaking but I can't tell how far down it goes. It is only a month old so I will be taking it to the dealer for some new cases. I wonder if I should bother with the 5 hour oil change, haha?
Really?!! Can-am built this problem into their 08's and they still do not have engine cases available that won't crack?
TNT
11-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Well I looked at the aircraft adhesive I was talking about above and it can only take 250 deg F. However the company is below we get it from and they have some high temp flexable adhesives that are good to 400 and can take 350 psi tension.
All I know is the P/S 890 we use is flexable, super strong, and is non-corrosive.
One could call this company which I think I will since we have some hair line cracks on a YAM leaking oil that are getting worse and see what they recommend.
http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NA/Aerospace/Sealants/Sealants_Products/
Ex_Rider43
11-08-2009, 06:01 PM
Wait for the 2010 update kit you will have everything you need to keep going without any problems.
it might be available right now i am not sure.
X400EX
11-08-2009, 08:26 PM
2010 update kit? I guess new cases and what else?
Mine started leaking oil too..
ZX11
11-09-2009, 12:36 AM
Yeah, tell us more about the kit.
I got to get this documented while I still have warrantee time left. I only have the standard 6 month warrantee with 5 months remaining. After getting it documented, I can wait for the kit as long as it doesn't leak oil or I can stop the leak with an epoxy.
BRP better get this right. I only bought this to tide me over until I can get a seadoo RXT 255hp next year. If I can't trust a 45hp rotax engine to stay together on land, I won't trust a 255hp supercharged rotax to stay together offshore. Hmm, turbo honda watercraft are cheap.
Blizzard24
11-09-2009, 05:42 AM
Are the updated cases having the same issues?
My 08 had a crack in the case and Can Am replaced the cases w the 2010 cases saying they have seen problems w the 08 cases and revised them.
I just took a look at Can Ams parts list on theor website and the 08 cases have different model numbers than the 09 cases, 10' isnt listed yet.
08 Case part #- 420685081
09 Case part #- 420685086
is anyone w an 09 or 10 seeing cracked cases? Since mine was replaced, I have had no issues (knock on wood)
kellymi
11-09-2009, 05:53 PM
I haven't had a chance to look at my 09 yet, and I wont be able to for a couple of weeks. All I know is that it isn't leaking oil. I really hope the 09 cases don't have the same problem.
ZX11
11-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Blizzard24
Are the updated cases having the same issues?
My 08 had a crack in the case and Can Am replaced the cases w the 2010 cases saying they have seen problems w the 08 cases and revised them.
How can they say they are 2010 cases if the part number doesn't seperate them from 2009's? A revision to fix the problem sounds great.
Hopefully Kelly's DS450 was built late in the year. I figure the early builds would have not had time to update parts from 08 lessons before they were assembled.
I wonder if the aluminum rim repair guys can fix the old case after can-am gets me new cases. Do they keep the cracked ones?
TNT
11-09-2009, 10:09 PM
2009 will be the same part # for 2010 if it fixed the prob, 2008 part number is the bad one. For 09 owners it will be the engine # M...... when the change took effect, Since there are no bullitins we have no way of knowing when this got implemented on the line. I guess look at a 08 vs your 09 in the area. There are or were two down the street maybe I'll go look tomorrow.
TNT
11-09-2009, 10:15 PM
Cr## I forgot we got 08 cases on a 09 from when we blew a rod out the case. Thanks for the great news guys! :eek:
I'm going down to the dealer to see one tomorrow. :mad:
Just got the motor back together today too.
......Nice!
Ill figure this out.....:grr:
Blizzard24
11-10-2009, 05:21 AM
Terry, I am just going by what the dealer had told me, it was a while ago so they may have said 2009-2010 cases when they told me what Can Am had done to fix the problem.
TNT
11-12-2009, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by kellymi
I haven't had a chance to look at my 09 yet, and I wont be able to for a couple of weeks. All I know is that it isn't leaking oil. I really hope the 09 cases don't have the same problem.
Might be a good idea for those that have not crack to build up the area with some JB weld or Permatex has a good one with good tensile thermal properties.
JB weld
Tensile Strength: 3960
Adhesion: 1800
Flex Strength: 7320
Tensile Lap Shear: 1040
Shrinkage: 0.0%
Resistant to: 500° F
Permatex: http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/26346.
pdf Tensile 4250, to 500F
Both at Advance Auto. Shotpeen a little first.
ds450xracer
11-12-2009, 07:17 PM
TNT can you explain to me what shot peening the area is, i have a crack on my case but it is not all the way through yet and i would like to keep it that way
thanks
TNT
11-12-2009, 08:26 PM
Sure! you get a ball peen hammer you know the one with a round end on one side and LIGHTLY tap the area. What that does is closes the crack puts a dome on the surface in compression and you cold work the surface which makes it stronger.
Here I did a quick drawing of what your trying to accomplish. This is an exploded section view of the engine by the crack.
In tight coners you may need some other tool like an auto-body hammer or any mandrel with a small dome on it. Afterward put some JB or Permatex to keep it in compression and keep the crack from growing or starting we hope! :D
http://i280.
photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ShotPeen.jpg
ds450xracer
11-12-2009, 08:33 PM
ok that helps me out alot, thank you very much and hopefully it will keep me from having to buy new cases
ZX11
11-13-2009, 06:21 PM
BRP has decided not to change my cases until they start leaking oil. The dealer sent them pictures. The crack is very minor now. It doesn't extend down below the swingarm pivot. I am ok with that and will ride it until it becomes a problem. My warrantee runs out in 4 months ( it was the standard 6 month) and I wanted it documented as happening at the 5 hour mark. Is it normal for them to wait until it leaks? It is not like the crack will fix or stablize itself.
Is there any upgrade parts I should add when when they do finally tear down the motor to fix the cases? What is the oil nozzle?
Blizzard24
11-13-2009, 10:23 PM
Change out the shift pawls to the updated part numbers, clutch update it if hasnt been done but thats about it.
TNT
11-14-2009, 12:29 PM
The oil squirter is #9. Some have been cracking it. Would be a good idea to epoxy it in with permatex engine or last I heard BCS was working on a better one. If it breaks your crank gears are gunna grind and you'll need a couple hundred just in parts maybe more.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Nozzle.gif
X400EX
11-14-2009, 08:15 PM
TNT, I'm gonna rebuild my DS this winter and check out my oil squirter. I wonder if you would have a few minutes to make a little "howto" on that... Just to make sure I do it the good way when I'll be there!
Also, if you know anything else good to verify... I'd appreciate a lot to know!
Thanks for your time.
John
TNT
11-15-2009, 02:27 PM
I wasn't there when the builder did it but it's just a matter of using a metal bond adhesive like permatex engine, scuff the mating surfaces up with scotch brite clean w/rubbing alcohol build up around it a little and the mating surface with glue and you'll be good to go. Its what we do in aircraft when we "fay surface and edge seal" parts in place.
Here's the deal talk to motoworks they never see them fail think it has to do with mechanics hitting them. Talk to BCS they have seen a few. My put bond it to be safe if it fails big bucks! Theres really nothing that hits them, the piston skirt does not unless it's a long one maybe....Our big bore doesn't so maybe motoworks is right someone hit it cracked it.....
Only other thing Motoworks brougt to our attention is the cam lobe @ TDC timing needs to be checked.....you may give them more call I was not there to fully see how our builder did it.
Other than that I'm putting some permatex on that area that has been cracking by the sproket and swing arm bolt and doing some shot peening first just to be safe.
Hope that helps and sorry I did not respond sooner it's been a nerve racking day racing. :D
X400EX
11-15-2009, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by TNT
I wasn't there when the builder did it but it's just a matter of using a metal bond adhesive like permatex engine, scuff the mating surfaces up with scotch brite clean w/rubbing alcohol build up around it a little and the mating surface with glue and you'll be good to go. Its what we do in aircraft when we "fay surface and edge seal" parts in place.
Here's the deal talk to motoworks they never see them fail think it has to do with mechanics hitting them. Talk to BCS they have seen a few. My put bond it to be safe if it fails big bucks! Theres really nothing that hits them, the piston skirt does not unless it's a long one maybe....Our big bore doesn't so maybe motoworks is right someone hit it cracked it.....
Only other thing Motoworks brougt to our attention is the cam lobe @ TDC timing needs to be checked.....you may give them more call I was not there to fully see how our builder did it.
Other than that I'm putting some permatex on that area that has been cracking by the sproket and swing arm bolt and doing some shot peening first just to be safe.
Hope that helps and sorry I did not respond sooner it's been a nerve racking day racing. :D
Thanks Terry, you're always a great help!
joedirt
11-16-2009, 08:09 PM
I was "shot peening" the crack on a friends quad and a chunk of the case broke out. Anyone know a good welder?
TNT
11-16-2009, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by joedirt
I was "shot peening" the crack on a friends quad and a chunk of the case broke out. Anyone know a good welder?
That was more than a surface crack. :rolleyes:
Like I said it's more for gouges. DON'T BEAT ON A DEEP CRACK! I said all your trying to do is put the SURFACE in compression do it LIGHTLY!
Hope you can weld that allright! Anyway you look at though like I said once the crack has started it's not if it's when it will open up. We scrap aircraft parts that are cracked...New cases are best! A weld may not hold either. Just a bad design!
comander420
11-16-2009, 08:52 PM
That is what I was afraid of, the case breaking. I think I'll just start with the welding and see what that gets me.
TNT
11-16-2009, 09:00 PM
We'll have to see if the 2010 cases fixed this, looked like to me from the photo the location was a high load area, how the new aluminum cases will take it is TBD.
Back to the crack if it looks like it's any more than .030 deep don't shot peen it just put some Devcon on it our engine builder says it super strong has been using it on engines and it's better than JB weld.
http://www.itw-devcon.co.uk/index.php?/devcon_mro/epoxy_adhesive_systems/devcon_2_ton_clear_epoxy/
He processes about 10 engines a day so I'll trust him and try it but we don't have a crack yet! Knock on wood.
TNT
11-16-2009, 09:07 PM
Call JSR John Stallworth he's been building quad engines that past 25 years....I think he said Devcon is what he uses and it works great! He can get ya some too...316-733-1936
TNT
11-16-2009, 09:16 PM
http://www.nolansupply.com/bysubcategory.asp?category=Fluids+and+Lubes&supercategory=Repair+Putties&subcategory=Devcon+Aluminum+%26+Plastic+Steel&type=False&specs=True
TNT
11-17-2009, 11:44 PM
Heres the shot peening we use on aircraft for gouges and surface cracks, to keep them from growing into larger cracks.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtlx&c58&tEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
It's a little involved..look at the photo's see the flap you put in your drill motor like a drill and slap the surface of the case with it. It has tungstun carbide beads that slap the metal and put it in compression like I told you. We do this after grinding goughes/cracks to get rid of surface stresses that can cause cracks and increase the fatigue life.
You really need someone that knows what they are doing to get this right. Aircraft mechanics have to be certified. You have to have the right drill speed, right flap, depends on what the crack or gouge depth is. Not sure if there are local shops in your area that can do this, but it may be less costly than new cases....I don't know.
I thought the very skilled could simulate this by taping lightly with a ball peen hammer to some degree then bond over it but since someone broke some case off bad idea!
We were doing some of this tonight and can take the flap to our skin it's that light.
Anyhow check out some of the photos, the surface you get it's kinda interesting if your into this sorta stuff. It be good on welds too if you had the tools.
Just buying the flap 3M recommends based on your crack, if you can get your drill speed right which is the most important thing might do it. We check our drill speed with a RPM tach. 3M can probably advise on that.
Sorry if I mis-lead anyone.
nbm
11-26-2009, 01:43 PM
I got a few questions. Does anybody know what the purpose of updating the 08 to the larger sleeve in the engine case that the swingarm bolt goes thru? Was it to keep the case from cracking? The warranty bulletin says the mount itself will fail but I don't see how the sleeve itself would fail. Also does anybody know if they actually redesigned the case for the 09/10 model to to make it stronger in the area it's cracking? I know they are different part numbers but that could be due to a larger hole in the case to accomodate the larger sleeve.
TNT
11-28-2009, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by nbm
I got a few questions. Does anybody know what the purpose of updating the 08 to the larger sleeve in the engine case that the swingarm bolt goes thru? Was it to keep the case from cracking? The warranty bulletin says the mount itself will fail but I don't see how the sleeve itself would fail. Also does anybody know if they actually redesigned the case for the 09/10 model to to make it stronger in the area it's cracking? I know they are different part numbers but that could be due to a larger hole in the case to accomodate the larger sleeve.
I can't speak for BRP but that larger sleeve would help in stabilizing the load the cases see.
comander420
12-05-2009, 03:20 PM
So here is my fix for the case crack.
Also I have 2 black about 1/2" dia o-rings that I can't remember where they go. I think that they come off when I took the swing arm bolt out but now I can't remember.
Does anyone know where these go?
nbm
12-05-2009, 07:39 PM
I don't have to worry about it anymore because I was able to get rid of the biggest piece of crap I have ever owned. The best advice I could give anyone is to not buy one of these. When the ds450 came out, can am had videos with a pro rider saying he "beat this thing to death" and it held up. I call that a flat out lie as I have in no way abused my quad. I had to pay part of the clutch update even tho I complained about it when it was under warranty but at that time there was no fix. Now the case is cracked and they don't want to pay for that either. You can argue that the 2009/10 models are improved but it seems nodoby knows for sure about the engine case. Am I bitter? yes. Do I hope they discontinue the ds450 due to lack of sales? yes. Is this how I really feel about the situation? yes. I bought a 2010 yfz450x so feel free to bash on that if I hurt anybodies feelings. Just remember That I'm not I guy on the outside looking in.
I owned one of these machines so I feel I have every right to voice my opinion.
ZX11
12-06-2009, 02:35 PM
The welds look strong enough to hold the oil in the case :D
nbm: DS 450's do have problems. Not covering the engine case's known issues is crap. I hope that YFZ450x is more reliable for you. What does the yamaha go for now days? $5,000?
comander420
12-06-2009, 08:59 PM
It wasn't leaking yet. It was just a stress fracture but I wanted to catch it before it ruined the case.
craigmacphee
12-08-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm looking at puting about $2500 in to my 09 motor. Before I do, will someone show me in a diagram or picture where I should be looking for these cracks. I'm not very motor savvy, so a circle around the problem area would be awesome. Thanks, Craig
TNT
12-08-2009, 09:25 PM
You take the front sprocket off the case adjacent to the sprocket there is a protruding boss that has a corner radii where it cracks, I don't think u got to worry w/your 09, there were bushing changes maybe some case gage increase fixed it since the case # changed in 09/10, the 08's are cracking.
.theres a engine bushing mod I think will help it too.
Heres some interesting stuff....
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/
comander420
12-08-2009, 09:51 PM
You would be able to see it from the back of the quad between where the swingarm goes through and the sprocket. Look at the picture where the weld is on mine and it would appear right in the middle where the case has a radius.
ds450xracer
12-09-2009, 04:36 PM
Hey tnt you think that stuff would really be stronger then a weld?
comander420
12-09-2009, 09:17 PM
I can't answer for sure but anything you stick on it will be bonding to the surface where welding is fusion. I don't see how applying anything on the surface will be better than a weld. But TNT may have a differnt view.
TNT
12-09-2009, 09:39 PM
I dunno, I don't see any tested mechanical properties on the site, it says it melts @ (717-737) 500 below alum and I think al is 1200F or so it should be safe since our engines don't see over 500 Id think.
I would not use it on exhaust, etc...This stuff is not a thermoset so it will melt once cured. I'm skeptic but you never know, I guess it's worth a try on some test peice it's not that expensive. I'm keeping it in the files just incase I get desperate. :D
craigmacphee
12-10-2009, 07:20 AM
thanks
X400EX
05-30-2010, 03:02 PM
comander420, is your case still ok?
I'm thinking about doing the same thing on mine, it has hairline cracks right there... and it's a 09.
ThePhantomRider
06-02-2010, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by ZX11
So there is a lot of flex in a pyramid aluminum frame? haha. I guess the intro videos from can-am were off base.
does the JB weld help the area before it cracks? Mine hasn't cracked yet but the postings are indicating that it will.
I thought the 2010 cases were the solution. But now it sounds like they will crack also.
There's flex in every frame, there has to be or they would be brittle and really weak. That said, I have posted this before, the frame was not intended for the weight and torque of the 450 motor in there. It was made for a much lighter 250 two stroke so the forces acting on the frame and motor are greater than designed. Hence you get cracks in both caused by each other.
TNT's fix is the best I've seen short of replacement BTW, you guys can learn a lot about structure and strength from him. We've gone round and round on the motor issue and his understanding of force dynamics is outstanding.
TPR
ThePhantomRider
06-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by nbm
I don't have to worry about it anymore because I was able to get rid of the biggest piece of crap I have ever owned. The best advice I could give anyone is to not buy one of these. When the ds450 came out, can am had videos with a pro rider saying he "beat this thing to death" and it held up.
I call that a flat out lie as I have in no way abused my quad. I had to pay part of the clutch update even tho I complained about it when it was under warranty but at that time there was no fix. Now the case is cracked and they don't want to pay for that either. You can argue that the 2009/10 models are improved but it seems nodoby knows for sure about the engine case. Am I bitter? yes. Do I hope they discontinue the ds450 due to lack of sales? yes. Is this how I really feel about the situation? yes. I bought a 2010 yfz450x so feel free to bash on that if I hurt anybodies feelings. Just remember That I'm not I guy on the outside looking in. I owned one of these machines so I feel I have every right to voice my opinion.
It was not a lie, he did beat the quad to death...but it was a lighter 2 stroke. Plus having an experienced rider who can make the big jumps look easy are sometimes easier on quads than we are. Not criticizing your riding ability at all, but sometimes their "beatings" are nothing compared to ours.
I mean generally they are lightweight jockeys to begin with, not a normal 200 pound guy.
TPR
TNT
06-03-2010, 09:27 AM
Thanks for the kudo’s TPR.
I’ve been looking around the engine compartment lately, it’s seems as though the engine is too large for the engine mounting points, as if as you say a larger engine was an after-thought to the location of the swing arm, rear engine mount, and upper engine mount.
At the rear engine mount (go look at it everyone), you will see the swing arm axis through the engine. A steel sleeve was added to prevent this case crack the idea to put load into the sleeve and away from the case, flex load from the frame engine attach. It did not work, one thing we can do is make sure it is bonded in since there is a designed bond-line gap many including dealers don’t know about. Since there is not enough engine material surround this sleeve the larger hole you drill to install it causes the case gasket and engine material to be too thin causing oil leaks and potential case failure.
I just suggested to a guy to build the area up w/epoxy and install an auxiliary gasket, put epoxy not only here but where the crack is/or developing in the fillet radius. If you look close at this area you will see two very small as-casted fillet radius adjacent to one another where it is cracking. You will then see what TPR is talking about, the radii are .060 at best. In structural design we don’t put that small radius adjacent to where large loads from a swing arm, you can see how the case design is extremely tight here as if the frame where designed for a smaller engine. What needs to happen here to fix this properly is move the swing arm axis back, provide adequate room for a proper case design, or reduce the size of the motor.
At the upper engine mount where we've seen case failures too, look at the amount of material that surrounds the bolt through the engine it’s insufficient for the same reason as the lower, the engine is too tall for the frame attach bracket, the case needs more material surrounding the bolt, but the frame rails will not allow it again eluding to the fact that this frame was designed for a smaller motor.
In general, as with the front frame members failing, BRP produced frame segments where major loads from a-arms and engine are induced. Extrustion’s are used and /or thin aluminum bent sheet metal that are .040-.060 thick at best. If you know what an extrusion is, they can be gage (thickness) increased by expensive machining in high load areas, but cost kills the concept. Again major redesign to fix this correctly cost effectively doing a sanity check on the use of extrusions that are expensive to gage change where needed. Not that welds are good, but this is where they come in handy(doublers, etc)....
So IMO it seems to all add up as TPR states to a designer that had no clue what they were doing or frame that was designed for a 250 two stroke smaller motor, I assume the later and Rotax 450 designer was given tight mounting contraints….I know a NASTRAN loads model would never show such small gages and radii in such high load areas good.
Not bashing the quad, many times the market changes in the design process as do the design requirements, I’ve seen this many times it’s not uncommon.
:)
ThePhantomRider
06-03-2010, 03:55 PM
God knows I love the tech in this quad, I championed it from day one, I was just bummed when I discovered the truth.
The reality is if they had designed the frame to fit the motor it would have been a little heavier to handle the new loads, but they totally could have pulled it off, and yes, market changes dictated the switch and they did the best with what they could given all the time and money already invested in it's development.
TPR
comander420
06-05-2010, 07:43 PM
Yes x400, the weld is holding up so far. It only has about 2 hours on it since I had it welded last fall and no races yet. I hope to change that and get a few races in this month so time will tell. I don't think it will crack again in that area. It seems that was about the thinnest area and the fillet were just asking for a problem. I would recomend if you have a hailine crack like I had get it tigged up before it gets worse.
If it works, great. If not then you are stuck buying the new cases you were going to anyway. Make sure you tig it not mig it as TIG doesn't produce as much heat as MIG and I threw a wet rag over the output shaft seal area to absorb any heat just in case but when the guy I had weld it got done it was cool to the touch.
X400EX
06-06-2010, 10:31 PM
I finaly went with JB Weld a few days ago because I was unsure. If it still cracks, I'll have it welded.
Thanks for keeping us updated! :)
400exc
06-08-2010, 06:59 PM
I must be a lucky one because i have a 2008 and yet to have a crack in that area. Hopefully it stays that way.
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06/16/2022 7 601 8 9 Consultation with a specialist
Author:Ivan Baranov
The transmission is broken on the Nissan Qashqai, a small crack.
Can you please tell me how to fix it? (Andrey)
Good afternoon, Andrey. The gearbox is an important unit in any car, so the repair of this unit should be dealt with immediately.
Contents
[Expand]
[Hide]
To solve the problem, you have several options:
The crack will need to be cut and cleaned, but without fanaticism. When you glue the fiberglass, you should try to catch on the protrusions on the unit. If you do everything right, the crack will be sealed and the box will serve you for more than one year. In fact, we have repeatedly encountered the fact that car owners operate their vehicles with a crack on the box. If the defect appeared in such a way that the consumable does not flow out of the gearbox, then motorists believe that there is nothing wrong with such operation.
In practice, vehicles with transmission defects can be used for more than one year. However, keep in mind - once you get into a hole alone, you can damage the box so much that no welding will help later. With constant mechanical pressure, the unit may simply crumble, and then you will have no other choice but to buy a new gearbox. nine0006
On the example of a box from Chevrolet Laccetti, you can see the process of removing cracks (the author of the video is Anatoly Ralo).
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How to glue a carburetor
It happens that over time a crack appears on the carburetor, from which gasoline flows out.
Many quickly close it up with cold welding, but this composition, however, like epoxy resin or various sealants, is temporarily held, and then falls off. What is the best way to close a crack?
Contents
Silumin is not a new material, but an alloy of aluminum and silicon. Moreover, it contains more aluminum than silicon by 4-5 times. Impurities of magnesium, iron and other substances are also used. Some silumins include sodium and lithium.
Why silumin. The fact is that this material has the best casting properties, ductility and increased strength. So, silumin is stronger and more wear-resistant than ordinary aluminum, but inferior in this regard to duralumin (also an aluminum alloy, but with copper or manganese). nine0006
Silumin production
Despite the strength of silumin, this alloy is quite brittle.
When processed, it crumbles easily. On the other hand, the material is incredibly resistant to corrosion. Therefore, it is used in the production of carburetors designed for operation in a humid aggressive environment.
Although cold welding does not like temperature extremes, and in most cases falls off over time, there are those motorists who use it. They claim that it is possible to seal a carburetor crack with this compound, but the effect will be if the surface is properly prepared. That is, in this case, it is necessary to thoroughly rinse the working area (where the composition will be applied) with gasoline, dry it, and then apply welding. nine0006
Cold welding
However, whatever one may say, cold welding can close small cracks, but what about large ones. She definitely won't get them. Under cold welding, it is customary to understand the sealing of cracks with various substances based on polymers. It is good at sealing cracks on flat surfaces, but is practically unable to seal cracks in the areas of walls, saddles, and surfaces where contact occurs, etc.
Electric welding is a better option. But will it cope with the silumin material, which is the carb body? nine0006
Aluminum is known to be very difficult to weld by electric welding, almost impossible. On the other hand, it lends itself well to sealing, but even here the classical methods will not work, because the material itself is extremely sensitive to the oxide film.
Therefore, the main task when working with aluminum is the timely removal of the oxide film, and the protection of the material from the effects of the atmosphere. To do this, it is recommended to apply rosin and mineral oil to the surface. nine0006
Powerful soldering iron for aluminum
You can solder the silumin carburettor body in the following way.
If this method does not work, you can try the following. nine0006
Weld a crack in the carb
Finally, the most time-consuming method, but more efficient and reliable. It will require a lot of effort and time, but the result will please the most picky carburetor. nine0006
Soldering stick
A special soldering stick, which is a solder-sealant, is also used for soldering the silumin case. A pencil soldering iron has proven itself well in eliminating seams and cracks in various parts of a car: tubes, a radiator, and other aluminum parts.
