ATV Riders Forum > ATV Riders Mechanical Section > ATV Powertrain > milling the head on a 400ex?
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waytooslow
07-10-2004, 08:23 PM
I want to mill the head on my 400ex, how much material can I remove safely?
Florida400EX
07-10-2004, 08:52 PM
Don't bother milling the head. Just use XR400 gaskets, that will get the head just about as low as you would want it.
F-16Guy
07-11-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by waytooslow
I want to mill the head on my 400ex, how much material can I remove safely?
What you really want to do is deck the cylinder. The piston sits a little low in the hole when using a piston with stock wrist pin location. You want have about 0.040 deck height including compressed gasket thickness. This will reduce the squish area between the edge of the piston and the head, which helps force the fuel/air charge toward the center of the combustion chamber.
I'm not an expert engine builder, but I'm pretty sure the effects are: more complete and efficient burning of the fuel/air mixture, and better flame travel in the combustion chamber which allows a higher compression ratio with a given octane fuel due to the lower combustion chamber temperatures. Decking will also raise the compression ratio slightly. Milling the head will only raise the compression, not affect the deck height.
ill_lil_romey
07-11-2004, 10:41 PM
If you eleminate the base gasket and use a xr head gasket, it should get you the perfect squish area with most pistons.
F-16Guy
07-12-2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by ill_lil_romey
If you eleminate the base gasket and use a xr head gasket, it should get you the perfect squish area with most pistons.
You can do it that way and get pretty close, but I'm a little leary about using gasket maker anywhere near the oil passage. If any squeeze-out partially blocked the passage, or even one of the holes in the cam lobe, it could be trouble.
If I were going to do it, I'd do it right.
waytooslow
07-12-2004, 05:58 PM
Can I just get a high compression piston? Will that do the same thing? Could I use a high compression piston with a XR400 gasket?
daimon1054
07-12-2004, 06:09 PM
1 get a better piston because the stocker was not made to run at higher compression ratios
2 when the jug is off get it milled, you will want to have the deck checked anyway so the money diff is not much.
As said skip the gasket material and find a good shop, the cost will not be much more and could be ton's less because the chance to screwing something up by doing it right is much less than trying to get out cheap.
I don't think you will be happy in the end though and would say spend a few bucks more and get the 416 or 440 kit.
F-16Guy
07-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by waytooslow
Can I just get a high compression piston? Will that do the same thing? Could I use a high compression piston with a XR400 gasket?
Definitely, that's what about 99% of people do.
If you're just looking for some extra power, a piston, cam, and gaskets would be about all you'd need (assuming, ofcourse, that you already have at least a slip-on pipe, a good filter, and access to larger jets). If you were building a race engine and you needed to extract every last HP possible, you would need to worry about doing the measurements and machine work necessary to achieve the right clearances. Ideally, you'd want to do it that way anyway, but few people have the patience to do it right. What you could do is call Cometic and order their thinnest base gasket for that engine, as well as an 87mm Flexsteel XR400 head gasket. Most people use the stock size, but I'm pretty sure they make one in the correct size; If not, I'd use an 88mm so you don't have gasket material extending into the combustion chamber.
F-16Guy
07-12-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by daimon1054
...I don't think you will be happy in the end though and would say spend a few bucks more and get the 416 or 440 kit.
Good point. You will most likely want to freshen up the bore (I was assuming you were going to bore it to a 416, or 87mm). It shouldn't be more than $40-$50, and the oversized piston and gaskets are the same price.
waytooslow
07-12-2004, 08:35 PM
OK. So here is what you are saying to do...buy the xr400 head gasket, buy a super thin base gasket, buy the 416 kit with the 11:1 piston...and I should be able to go fast. I hope I am getting all of this right.
daimon1054
07-12-2004, 09:02 PM
Find a 416 kit and get the compleet kit. It will have everything you need. If you have any questions call the tech support people who sell you the kit and they will save you time and money and make sure your are happy with the end results.
Quadzilla
07-13-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by waytooslow
OK. So here is what you are saying to do...buy the xr400 head gasket, buy a super thin base gasket, buy the 416 kit with the 11:1 piston.
..and I should be able to go fast. I hope I am getting all of this right.
C&D sells custom Cometic gaskets that are 8 thousands thinner than stock XR on both the base and head gaskets. That is what I used on mine. Gets the squish almost perfect and also increases the compression a little over what the piston is rated for. For example, I have a Ross 10.8:1 piston, but I'm prob running 11:1 or slightly higher because of my gaskets...
kgbg
07-13-2004, 11:24 AM
Which ever way you go about it, I had mine decked, head milled, and chamber welded up, to clay the piston, to make sure you have proper vlave to piston clearances. I had very high comp (13:1), with a flat top piston. Make sure you have clearance. I did not and it was ugly.
Quadzilla
07-13-2004, 11:29 AM
If you run w a lower compression (less than 12:1) you should not have any clearance issues. Anything over 11:1, you will have to run a race race/pump mix (or just race gas) and also have to get heavy duty studs for your head.
..
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ATV Riders Forum > Sport ATV Model Information > Honda TRX 250R ATV Info > Piston Deck Height
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View Full Version : Piston Deck Height
TRX370R
02-13-2005, 01:48 PM
I am in the process of getting the R back together after all hell broke loose on the engine on the last ride out. After I got the new stroker crank in, reassembled the cases and put the cylinder on I noticed that on TDC the piston is actually sticking out of the cylinder alittle bit. It is a Pro X cylinder and when I have the head on it it doesn't contact it because the shape of the dome. I am using the big spacer plate that esr sent me. Just wondering if this is normal because I can't remember if the old setup was the same way or not. Thanks
papatrx
02-13-2005, 07:03 PM
If your piston is out of the hole you definately need to check your squish to see where its at in relation to your dome on your head.
With the piston out of the hole there are several factors now that come into play.
1 You do not want your squish to be less than .030
2 Your head is now going to act like an extension of the cylinder and the side clearance must be set up accordingly other wise you get a build up of gas on the outside of the piston thereby increasing the possiblity of detonation instead of up in the dome for a good burn. Anytime you increase your bore size you will now need your head re-cut for the new piston.
3 Your compression must be checked because these are some major head modifications for this type of setup.
JTRtrx250r
02-14-2005, 06:37 AM
What yr piston?
wilkin250r
02-14-2005, 12:27 PM
papatrx gave some good advice, but let's start with the basics first.
No, it is generally not normal for the piston to extend above the cylinder. But let's be clear on exactly what you mean. You are talking the edge of the piston, correct? It's normal for the center of the dome to be above the cylnder, but not for the edges of the piston to be above.
How much is "a little bit"? Can it be corrected with thicker base gaskets or something along those lines?
You indicated that you put the head on, and the piston did not contact the head. But did you actually measure the squish clearance?
papatrx
02-14-2005, 02:40 PM
Exactly wilkin, the "piston not contacting the head" means nothing, squish can make or break and engine. Did you add the stroker crank or was it done at a shop? What size rod is in it now?
If you are going to add a "stroker crank" everything needs to be measured first, calculations made then assembled after any machining is done and measured again after.
Adding stroke to your crank will also affect your port timing, if your port timing is fairly radical, stroking it may not make it run better. Before you start adding gaskets all over just to make it fit measure your port timing with a degree wheel and keep track of every change to see what the effects are.
Most reputable engine builders I know will not sell a stroker crank to someone unless they assemble the engine or are very confident that the customer is qualified to assemble and measure correctly. This will keep you the customer from coming back complaining about an enhancement that does not work or has ruined their engine.
wilkin250r
02-14-2005, 03:39 PM
Doesn't ESR use the Pro-X cylinders?
He said ESR send him the spacer plate, he using a Pro-X cylinder, stroker crank, plus his user name, I assumed it was the ESR370 kit. If that's the case, he can probably skip the port timing calculations. They are useful information, sure, but not a neccessity like they would be if he was building a stroker motor from scratch.
But still, even with a kit, and skipping the port timing, it's STILL not normal for your piston to be above your cylinder. If it's an ESR kit, I'd give them a call.
papatrx
02-14-2005, 04:46 PM
I stand corrected.
When you call ESR make sure you have the specs on the crank they sent you, I am assuming you bought the new crank from them. Also measure the spacer plate thickness and let them know that, mistakes are made and sometimes the wrong parts are sent out.
I would at the very least measure the squish to make sure it's ok, I have seen mistakes made at the big shops with wrong parts matched up and sent out. I measure everything, no matter what, but I am a fanatic about my engine's going together correctly.
I have been bitten before with this so I am speaking from experience....my own stupidity.
TRX370R
02-14-2005, 04:46 PM
The engine set up that was in the bike before the damage was an ESR built 370 (actually sent the motor to them and had them install the stroker crank, bore/hone, and report the cylinder for the stroker design). I had the rod break and now I am rebuilding it myself. I ordered a 370kit from ESR, with a new stroker crank. In theory it should be the same setup that was installed from ESR.
I when ahead and assembled everything, started it, broke it in, rode it for about 2 hours and everything seems to be ok althought I didn't hold it in the RPMs too long as I'm still breaking it in. As far as the piston sticking up it is actually the whole piston coming out of the cylinder bore about 1/8". Although it seems to be running ok after reading the posts I think I'll give them a call and see what they think, I just hope they don't say oh we sent you the wrong crank, split the cases again and send that one back to us.
TRX370R
02-14-2005, 05:36 PM
Just got off the phone with ESR and they said that it was normal for the piston to come out of the cylinder about .040 at the edge. Nice to know that I don't have to swap out the crank or piston. Thanks for all the replies
papatrx
02-15-2005, 06:09 AM
Thats correct, actually many of the large stroker motors have the piston come out of the hole where the top ring is almost flush with the deck.
...lots of head work required.
Remember now if you get a new top end and go to a larger bore size you must give them your head also, it will need to be cut to fit the larger piston.
beerock
02-15-2005, 07:16 PM
hey wilkin, i guess that space is .40, member the convo about my piston being inside like 3-4mm
wilkin250r
02-15-2005, 07:46 PM
I do, and you were still running something crazy like 230psi compression or something like that. I'm STILL boggled at what kind of absurd head work have you got that gives you those kind of numbers?
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An ATV is a "machine" that can reach speeds between 50 and 90 kilometers per hour, depending on the model, purpose and pilot.
Good equipment for a quad biker is the health of the quad biker and the preservation of the nerve cells of the quad biker's family (c) the mother of the quad biker.
Seriously, this is one of the first things to think about when you decide to ride this vehicle.
Helmet. Whatever it is, it will protect you from blows and concussions. In addition to such serious troubles, it is able to shelter you from dust, branches, dirt and precipitation. Its function is very important and occupies a key place in all equipment for riding an ATV. According to the number of closed places on the head, they are divided into three types: open, completely covering the head, covering it by ¾. The more open the helmet, the greater the view opens, but the level of protection, respectively, is lower.
An ATV suit is considered good if:
In other words, the suit must protect against moisture, pass excess steam from the body, fit well, have good thermal protection and wind protection.
Buy ATV equipment must be complete with shoes. The ideal option is high-top boots and motocross boots. The latter are mainly in demand among professional athletes.
ATV equipment is only considered complete if the elbows, knees and hands are also protected. This function is performed by knee pads, elbow pads and gloves.
If the helmet is without glass, it is imperative to protect the eyes with goggles. Which differ by season - winter / summer, elasticity, color, price.
You can independently assemble everything you need in different outlets of the city, or you can save time and contact our specialists who will select all the components for you.
ATV equipment stores are located at: st.
Egorova 25 and Bolshoy Sampsonievskiy pr. 76
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Once you have purchased an ATV and have mastered it, the next fun part is to decorate your pet and complete its design with all sorts of innovations offered by ATV companies and standing close to them and providing equipment for ATV accessories. This is a very exciting business, because the range of products is constantly updated with new know-how and the choice is growing every day.
The first step for ATV riders who start tuning their ATV is to change tires and rims. Do not be original, do the same. Keep in mind that all tires are divided by type into road and off-road. This matters when you are planning your itinerary. From the name itself it is clear which tires are more acceptable in which case. In addition, ATVs are always interested in tire size and everyone wants to change it in the direction of increasing.
But here you need to be careful. If you overdo it too much, you will need to change the axis. Of course, if you are ready for such drastic changes, then your ATV will significantly increase the degree of patency. If you are not ready for this, then limit yourself to the middle option, it should be enough for the requirements imposed on you by nature. Usually for ATVs, the following dimensions are used: 22x12x10, 22x12x8 and the like. Each ATV tire company develops a unique tire tread pattern and is easily recognizable by this pattern. Tires can be of radial and diagonal design. Consider this too when choosing. Tires also differ in diameter, which corresponds to the diameter of the disk - the landing diameter. Usually it is standard and is 8-10 centimeters.
Wheels can be cast or stamped, alloy wheels are more commonly used in ATVs. By their design, they differ in such basic parameters: the central hole, the offset of the disk, the diameter of the studs, and the size. All this is selected individually.
The only remark - do not neglect the opportunity to change the disks of your ATV, this will dramatically change its appearance and give the missing gloss and freshness to your unit.
The next important detail is the batteries. The main parameters that distinguish them from each other: electrolyte volume, weight, charging current. The volume of electrolyte varies from 0.12 to 0.33; weight - from 2.1 kilograms to 5 kilograms; charging current - from 0.3 amperes to 0.6 amperes. With the increase in the main parameters, the possibilities for using the battery increase. In modern batteries, special attention is paid to increasing starting power and improving vibration resistance. Also, one of the advantages of upgrading is the fact that the battery has a minimum self-discharge, which insures against the possibility of a deep discharge. This is relevant when solving the issue of using an ATV in the "wet" season. Also pay attention to the shelf life of the battery, this will save you money in the future.
Tramp ATVs can be equipped with a new exhaust system. There are options for exhaust systems that reduce noise levels by 50%! All of them are made of stainless steel, easy to install and do not force you to redo something in the ATV itself.
There is such a thing as ATV underbody protection. This device will be very useful to you while using the ATV. It is also easy to install and does not require significant reconstruction of the ATV.
A very handy feature is the low tire pressure sensor. It has an attractive design, embedded in a rubber pad for shock protection. The white front scale emphasizes the black numerals and makes it easier for the owner to use it. But the most important thing is the function of this sensor. It does not allow the pressure inside the tires to fall to an unacceptable level, keeps it within normal limits.
You can equip your ATV with an upgraded windshield. It can be universal or black, at your discretion.
The emergency towing cable should always be in your trunk, just in case.
On the market, it can be presented in a metal or nylon version. Your job is to make the right choice that suits you personally.
Various types of brackets allow you to save the useful area of the trunk when transporting various goods. They are versatile and can be mounted both vertically and horizontally for ease of transportation.
The following original designs also serve this purpose. Trunks in various variations. These special containers used for cargo transportation can be soft, made of fabric, and plastic, more dense. They can be mounted both front and rear. Front saddlebags can be supplemented with connectors for the windshield. Rear panniers are sometimes made as a second seat for a passenger. Backrest, armrests, soft seat, and under it - a container for cargo. Very rational.
If your ATV is going to encounter a body of water, make sure that no water gets into the engine. For this purpose, you should purchase a snorkel. This is such a special device, which is a tube with an air intake, which provides air access to the engine filter and cools the variator.
