ATV Riders Forum > Sport ATV Model Information > Honda TRX 400EX & 400X ATV Info > Is there a way to tell if timing chain needs replaced?
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VTredneckgames
09-21-2009, 01:07 PM
In a few weeks Im going to have to have some head work done and possibly a bore (smokes heavily at WOT).
Assuming that the cam is fine, Im just going to run the stock one again. I dont want to replace the timing chain unless I really have to. On down the road I might go with a stage1 cam and I'll replace it then. But is there a way to tell if mine really needs it now? I have some ticking in the motor, but I know that most of it is in the valves.
Im basically a wuss and Im afraid of messing something up with the clutch. It works fine now and I like how it engages. I dont want to risk changing that by replacing a timing chain that I really didnt need.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks
Which 450?
09-21-2009, 01:41 PM
If you know what your doing. You can tell by how far out the cam chain tensioner is. I believe it tells you how in the service manual.
TRXRacer1
09-21-2009, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Which 450?
If you know what your doing. You can tell by how far out the cam chain tensioner is. I believe it tells you how in the service manual. Other then bumping you post count that was a completely pointless post. Good Job.
Vted, with everything together, pull the auto tensioner off. When you get it off it should be fully extended or out. Fit it back in the hole and see how far in you can get it by hand. If you can go almost all the way before needing to back off the adjuster then that would indicate a good amount of stretch in the cam chain.
rob_990
09-21-2009, 04:18 PM
you might as well replace it while you in there.and for the clutch..just take a sharpie and draw a line across the clutch plates/basket so you line them up correctly when you put it back together.
TRXRacer1
09-21-2009, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by rob_990
you might as well replace it while you in there.and for the clutch..just take a sharpie and draw a line across the clutch plates/basket so you line them up correctly when you put it back together. Why spend the money if what he has checks out good?:confused:
Which 450?
09-21-2009, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Other then bumping you post count that was a completely pointless post. Good Job.
Vted, with everything together, pull the auto tensioner off. When you get it off it should be fully extended or out. Fit it back in the hole and see how far in you can get it by hand.
If you can go almost all the way before needing to back off the adjuster then that would indicate a good amount of stretch in the cam chain.
I dont appreciate the attack. I have reported your post. There is a specific way of checking how far the cam chain has stretched. If he doesnt know how to check it nor have a manual, then he isnt mechanically inclined enough for the task.
Which 450?
09-21-2009, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Why spend the money if what he has checks out good?:confused:
This is because the stock cam chains are known for stretching easily and the heavy duty replacement, crf450 cam chain, is very inexpensive. Plus the motor will be apart, this will avoid him having to pay to have the motor re-disassemble later on.
TRXRacer1
09-21-2009, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Which 450?
This is because the stock cam chains are known for stretching easily and the heavy duty replacement, crf450 cam chain, is very inexpensive.
Plus the motor will be apart, this will avoid him having to pay to have the motor re-disassemble later on. The only thing that is a stretch here is using the word "easily". There's 400's out there from 96 still running the stock cam chain. Do they stretch, sure but they aren't going to do it all of a sudden. If the chain is still good, it's still good. The only part off right now that's part of the job is the rocker box and that's the easiest part. He hasn't touched the side yet and currently has no reason until he finds otherwise.
Which 450?
09-21-2009, 07:51 PM
If there's an xr400 from 96 with the stock cam chain its because it hasn't been ran hard.
Zeb400EX
09-22-2009, 12:48 AM
VT
Take your tensioner out and take your valve cover off. Then look at your cam gear. Lift up your chain up off of the cam gear. If you can see the teeth on the top of the gear your chain is probably stretched. Also when my chain was wore out the motor would have this slapping sound when I would start it cold and it would go away once it got warm.
Hope this helps.:)
VTredneckgames
09-22-2009, 05:31 AM
Thanks for the replies.
Zeb and TRX, thanks for the tips on how to check the chain for stretch. I will do both when the time comes (probably in 2 weeks)
Which 450?, thanks for playing the devil's advocate. Someone has to. Just because I had to ask how to check it does not mean that I am not mechanically inclined enough to do it. You made a wrong assumption there. I am very mechanically inclined. However I am new to working on atvs and I am the type that likes to learn things about them. I have a cousin that works on them alot and I could easily get him to do it all for me. But I plan on doing it myself and getting his help if need be.
The clutch does worry me, that is the biggest reason I dont want to mess with it if I dont have to. I know I will have to change it at some point. I also want to put in a stage1 cam at somepoint too. So if the chain is still in decent shape, then I will wait to replace it until the time when I install the cam.
As far as having a manual, yes I do have one. However, I dont have access to it at this point in time. I just want to have all of my ducks in a row before I start. But thank you for advice nonetheless.
F-16Guy
09-22-2009, 08:28 AM
My feelings are that this is an issue that is way over-hyped. I think a good deal of timing chain problems stem from improper tensioner installation. I rode the dog crap out of my 400ex for years with zero timing chain issues. In fact, the ONLY reason my stock chain isn't still on is because I had a Carrillo rod installed, so it was apart anyway. If it's properly installed, there isn't that much drag on a timing chain, even with an aftermarket cam. If you're going to have it apart for some other reason, then do it. If not, just run the stocker.
TRXRacer1 -- Which 450? had a better answer than you did. Consulting the manual for the correct procedure is better advice than your "eyeballing" method.
TRXRacer1
09-22-2009, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by F-16Guy
TRXRacer1 -- Which 450? had a better answer than you did. Consulting the manual for the correct procedure is better advice than your "eyeballing" method. I'll disagree. At least I gave him something and something that will tell him a lot. Nothing eyeball about it, you're using the tensioner as a gauge. Are you trying to say that if you can get the tensioner almost all the way in with it fully extended that the chain is good? It's a dead give away test. Which 450?'s post was a total waste and contributed to a problem of stupid posts.
Which 450?
09-22-2009, 07:39 PM
There is a specific measurement to test the chain. I don't know it, which is why I said to reference the book. I can out-diagnose you any day of the week btw. and I'm not being cocky, its just how it is.
F-16Guy
09-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by TRXRacer1
I'll disagree.
At least I gave him something and something that will tell him a lot. Nothing eyeball about it, you're using the tensioner as a gauge. Are you trying to say that if you can get the tensioner almost all the way in with it fully extended that the chain is good? It's a dead give away test. Which 450?'s post was a total waste and contributed to a problem of stupid posts.
Okay, so exactly how far out can the tensioner extend before the chain is no good? And is the chain bad, or are the guides bad, or both? How do you tell? My tensioner didn't have any go/no-go marks on it, so I'd have to disagree with it being a guage. Without some kind of specifications or tolerances, your advice is nothing more than "eyeballing" it. Giving bad advice is worse than giving no advice. At least Which 450? indicated that he thought there was a procedure in the manual and pointed him in that direction.
billyboy93
09-25-2009, 06:03 PM
i went to get my 2007 400ex serviced and they had 2 replace the timing chain and tensner so they dont last that long.
..its still at the shop
TRXRacer1
09-25-2009, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by billyboy93
i went to get my 2007 400ex serviced and they had 2 replace the timing chain and tensner so they dont last that long...its still at the shop Consider yourself either a rare case or screwed by the service department.
VTredneckgames
09-27-2009, 01:16 PM
well, I looked through the manual, but I couldnt find the right procedure. I have the pdf file. Not saying its not in there, I just couldnt find it.
I checked it like mentioned earlier, and there was about 3/16 left of travel. Some of the links looked alittle weak sideways. I figured since I had it apart, im going to go ahead and replace it. I ordered a crf450 chain for it.
Zeb400EX
09-27-2009, 01:34 PM
be sure and put some lock tight (blue) on those cam gear bolts.
TRXRacer1
09-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by VTredneckgames
well, I looked through the manual, but I couldnt find the right procedure.
I have the pdf file. Not saying its not in there, I just couldnt find it.
I checked it like mentioned earlier, and there was about 3/16 left of travel. Some of the links looked alittle weak sideways. I figured since I had it apart, im going to go ahead and replace it. I ordered a crf450 chain for it. Good choice, 3/16 is not enough.
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ATV Riders Forum > ATV Riders Mechanical Section > ATV Powertrain > Signs that you need a new timing chain
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View Full Version : Signs that you need a new timing chain
LazeR
05-03-2005, 12:47 PM
Well i have an '02 400ex, and i haven't replaced anything internally, and i was wondering how to really tell besides taking it apart to see if i need a timing chain ? I know that it will start ticking, but how loud ? Cause i have the normal valve ticking, but its always done that.
BLEEDRED
05-03-2005, 02:31 PM
You would have to open it up and look at the guides. I don't think you will see wear on the chain, but it will be streatched. I personally would wait until you are rebuilding it or replacing the cam. You have to pull the top end including the cam and then the right crank case cover to get to the guides and replace the chain. If it aint broke...
bwamos
05-03-2005, 02:39 PM
assuming you are running a stock '02 and don't have an agressive cam + heavy valve springs, etc.. there really is no reason to worry about it. Cars go 120,000 miles or approx 3000 - 4000 hours of driving before you have to replace them.
You most likley don't have more than 300 hours on your atv.
Only time you'd need to worry about it is if you have had any major top end work done wich adds more stress to the chain causing it to wear out a LOT faster.
I've got a 1998 330ex w/ major engine work done to it and it is till running it's stock timing chain w/ no signs of fatigue.
Not Stroked so haven't had to open up the cases.
Besides you're riding red.. stock Honda engines are about as bullet proof as you can get.
FoxRacing81
05-03-2005, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by bwamos
Besides you're riding red.. stock Honda engines are about as bullet proof as you can get.
Wish I could say that for mine...Mine's been in the shop 3 times so far..
One way I could tell when mine was bad was that it ticked...not the normal valve tick...it was alot louder and it would tick even when it was cold..not after it warmed up....too bad I didn't replace mine in time....but if you don't hear anything out of the ordinary or feel any engine change...don't worry about it.
-Justin
TC426EX
05-03-2005, 03:12 PM
I say replace it anyway. You can get a CRF 450 cam chain that is twice as beefy and fits perfectly for 25 bucks from service honda. If you have any doubts about it, just change it since its so cheap and easy to do.
...
2001400exrider
05-03-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by MX610EX
Wish I could say that for mine...Mine's been in the shop 3 times so far..
One way I could tell when mine was bad was that it ticked...not the normal valve tick...it was alot louder and it would tick even when it was cold..not after it warmed up....too bad I didn't replace mine in time....but if you don't hear anything out of the ordinary or feel any engine change...don't worry about it.
-Justin
what do u mean "in time" mine has that LOUD tick that u can hear standing 10 feet away... and wondering if i should replace mine..
LazeR
05-04-2005, 01:29 PM
Thanks to everyone who replied. I was just kind of curious, i might just replace it when i have the money for my 416 kit. Which hopefully isn't to far away.
bwamos
05-04-2005, 03:54 PM
Sounds like a good time to replace it.
;)
To the guy above. Check to make sure you have proper clearance on your rockers. Also make sure you're timing chain hasn't jumped a tooth or two (if it has you want to change the chain anyway). It could be rocker noise or blowback noise from early timing.
Get your pistion Top-Dead-Center w/ all valves closed and make sure the mark on your cam sprocket is parallel to your cylinder (assuming Honda used similar markings on the 300 and 400).
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Over time, the chain and sprockets on your motorcycle can wear out and require attention. Even though chains and sprockets improve every year and require less maintenance, sooner or later they will have to be replaced.
Under the influence of external factors (adhesion of dirt and sand), the metal on the chain and stars becomes thinner.
Grains of sand and dust simply wear away the surface of the teeth like sandpaper.
Manufacturers always recommend changing chain and sprockets at the same time. The front and rear chainrings usually wear the same, differences can occur if sprockets from different manufacturers are used. Also, if the sprocket is aluminum, it is acceptable to change it more often, as it is softer than steel and wears out faster.
With normal maintenance, quality branded O-Rings (such as D.I.D VO) last 16,000 km, X-Rings (DID VX, VT, ZVM-X) need to be changed every 32,000 km. But do not forget that with poor care, any chains serve much less.
Sprockets can have different lifespans depending on the metal used and manufacturing techniques, so it's a good idea to install sprockets from the same manufacturer.
We recommend the following brands:
AFAM - French premium quality chainrings, this brand is loved by athletes for its high strength, suitable for use in competitions;
Sunstar - original sprockets for Japanese motorcycles, installed on Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki motorcycles from the factory;
JT Sprockets are the most popular economical and reliable sprockets for motorcycles, made from Japanese steel, certified to European standards.
A worn chain begins to slowly break the star, as its links will no longer slip over the teeth, but will hit them. The teeth are deformed. In the process of wear, they bend, bend and even break off. When operating a heavily worn chain, the link pitch increases, and the rollers begin to run along the tops of the sprocket teeth. In the worst case, this can even lead to a chain break.
(New sprocket on the left side, worn sprocket on the right side)
To check the condition of the drive sprocket, the protective cover must be removed. You can also inspect the teeth by gradually turning the rear wheel. Worn teeth will look like diagram 2. If the sprocket is missing teeth, chipped or bent teeth, immediate replacement is required. The rear sprocket is easier to inspect, signs of wear are the same as on the front.
After each cleaning, pay attention to the tension of the chain: if it sags a lot, this is a clear signal that it is time to change it.
When moving, such a chain will rattle. There is usually a sticker on the swingarm of a motorcycle indicating the amount of chain slack. For sportbikes with a small suspension travel, it usually lies in the range of 25-35mm, for enduros - about 40mm, for motocross bikes - even more. If the chain is pulled into the string during the swing of the pendulum, this leads to increased wear of the chain, sprockets and box bearings, so it is necessary to maintain the chain tension in the optimal range.
If the chain begins to require constant tightening, then it is time to change it. Also carefully inspect the inner chain seals. If defects are noticed, the chain needs to be replaced.
Some motorcyclists consider changing a sprocket every time a waste of money, changing them only every other time, or simply filing the teeth on old sprockets. Sawing the edges will save you some money, but it only increases the chance that something might break later on.
Some motorcyclists advise to simply turn the old star over to save money, but this is also not safe, because the teeth on the inverted star can simply break.
The more worn the chain, the more impact on the teeth. This, in turn, can completely break the stars and even the gearbox shaft. And replacing the secondary shaft will be very expensive.
By installing a new chain on old sprockets, you immediately reduce the life of the chain itself. It is important that the chain and stars are ground to each other. Old sprockets can cause increased wear on the drive chain or chain breakage while riding. Doing so could result in an accident and danger to the rider as the chain could hit the rider or wrap around the leg.
Installed at the same time, the new sprockets and chain will wear together over time and transmit all the power of the motorcycle, as well as provide a comfortable ride. One-time replacement of the chain and sprockets guarantees a reliable ride without loss of power, as well as helps to avoid unnecessary costs due to unforeseen breakdowns.
Each chain has its own tensile strength and wear resistance, it is very important to choose it correctly for your motorcycle model. Different chains can withstand different loads, for example, chains with X-rings last 2 times longer than ordinary O-Ring chains.
The more massive the chain, the more difficult it is to break it, therefore, it is recommended to install reinforced chains on more powerful motorcycles (over 600-750cc).
There are also differences between off-road and road chains. For cross chains, special narrow X-seals are used. Thanks to the smaller gaps, they are not as susceptible to wear from dirt and sand.
When installing a conventional chain on a dirt bike, remember to drop 150cc from the power limit stated in the chain specifications: for example, if the chain says "up to 400cc", the maximum engine displacement of a motocross bike that it can be put on is 250cc.
We have a large selection of motorcycle chains and sprockets in our store, we cooperate only with well-known manufacturers and guarantee the quality. When choosing a product, you can use the selection filter by motorcycle models or contact our consultants for help.
In order for the new chain and sprockets to last longer, you need to properly care for them - regularly clean and lubricate. Cleaning is recommended to be carried out as it gets dirty, and lubrication at least every 500 km and after washing or rain.
Why should the chain be cleaned? As you ride, the chain rollers roll over the sprocket teeth, reducing friction. Dirt, old grease residues and road dust accumulate in the gaps of the chain rollers. The coked grease jams the rollers, and instead of rolling, they slide over the teeth of the sprockets, erasing them. This leads to increased wear of the teeth of the drive stars.
The roller itself is worn out from the dirt from the inside and crumbles, rubber seals suffer the most.
Regular chain lubrication is essential to replenish the factory lube under the rollers and maintain the rubber seals on the chain, prevent rust, reduce wear on the chain and sprockets, and reduce torque loss from the motor to the wheel.
Without proper care, the chain can become completely unusable after only a few thousand kilometers.
Be sure to thoroughly wash and clean the chain before lubricating: apply Motul or Bel-Ray chain cleaner aerosol. Their compositions were created purposefully to dissolve chain lubricants and do not harm oil seals. A pressure washer jet from an aerosol can penetrates into the gaps of the chain, dissolves the remaining lubricant and knocks it out from under the rollers along with dust and water. If heavily soiled, you can use a brush to clean the chain.
Apply the cleaner to the entire surface of the drive chain while spinning the wheel.
For convenience, you can use the center stand or sliding under the rear wheel.
Never clean the chain while in gear and do not try to clean hard-to-reach places with your fingers - this can lead to injury! Do not inhale spray liquid!
Oilless chains can be cleaned with kerosene. For omental chains, this is prohibited, since the internal lubrication of the omentums will be washed out, and the chain will immediately lose the manufacturer's warranty. Internal lubrication lasts the entire life of the chain (provided that the sealing collars on the edges of the bushing are preserved).
After cleaning the chain, be sure to dry it thoroughly with a cloth. If the solvent does not have time to evaporate, it will be difficult for fresh grease to seep into the gaps. Flushing will show excellent results only with regular maintenance of the chain; with occasional use, you will not achieve the desired result.
Apply chain lubricant suitable for your motorcycle to the inside of the chain while turning the wheel.
Then the lubricant is applied not to the roller, but to the rubber seals, but already in the outer circle. That is, full lubrication takes place in two turns of the chain, for the first the inner side is lubricated, for the second - the outer.
Let the lubricant dry for 10-15 minutes, remove excess lubricant with a rag, the chain should look like dry. This will not only prevent grease from getting on the rear wheel, but also extend the life of the chain with stars.
Dear colleagues, I plan to replace the valve cover gasket and spark plug wells (the oil went into the wells slowly), respectively, I will remove the valve cover.
Since the mileage is close to 150 t.km. (K10A, Japanese) I would like to know if it is possible to check the condition of the timing chain and sprockets (at least the top one) with the valve cover removed (by tension, control dimensions, etc.) and how to do it. I didn't find anything in the manual. Thanks in advance.
Answer: Timing chain status detection?
SV41 wrote:
Dear colleagues, I plan to replace the valve cover gasket and spark plug wells (the oil went into the wells slowly), respectively, I will remove the valve cover.
Since the mileage is close to 150 t.km. (K10A, Japanese) I would like to know if it is possible to check the condition of the timing chain and sprockets (at least the top one) with the valve cover removed (by tension, control dimensions, etc.) and how to do it. I didn't find anything in the manual. Thanks in advance.
Click to open...
With the chain removed, it is elementary, on the engine it is unrealistic, the wrap angle will not allow you to get the correct result.
Answer: Timing chain status detection?
SHREIBIKUS wrote:
When the chain is removed, it is elementary, on the engine it is unrealistic, the wrap angle will not allow you to get the correct result.
Click to expand...
And when removed, how to determine wear? by lenght?
Answer: Timing chain status detection?
SV41 wrote:
And when removed, how to determine wear? by lenght?
Click to expand...
No, not in length. It is necessary to clasp the entire gear with a chain (exactly the whole, and not half or less), and holding with your fingers try to lift the chain over the teeth on the side opposite to the fingers, I probably wrote a little tricky, I think you will understand.
So you will find out the degree of wear of the pair, if it rises, you must also check the gear to make sure that only the chain is worth replacing. By the way, you can check the wear of the gear with any new chain, even from the Basin right on the market, so as not to resort to unreasonable expenses. All chains have the same inch pitch and this is world practice, you can't go wrong here. Good luck .
Answer: Timing chain status detection?
SHREIBIKUS wrote:
No, not in length.
It is necessary to clasp the entire gear with a chain (exactly the whole, and not half or less), and holding with your fingers try to lift the chain over the teeth on the side opposite to the fingers, I probably wrote a little tricky, I think you will understand. So you will find out the degree of wear of the pair, if it rises, you must also check the gear to make sure that only the chain is worth replacing. By the way, you can check the wear of the gear with any new chain, even from the Basin right on the market, so as not to resort to unreasonable expenses. All chains have the same inch pitch and this is world practice, you can't go wrong here. Good luck .
Click to open...
In short, the idea is clear, can't you check the chain without disassembling the front? The gear probably wears out much less than the chain, that is, if the gear is worn out, then the chain can be said to be a complete pipets, which means it would probably rattle, it’s kind of quiet for me, so it’s better not to touch (do not interfere with Japanese technology to work as they say).
In general, I wonder how much the chain runs on K10A, who has experience?
Answer: Timing chain status detection?
SV41 wrote:
In short, the idea is clear, can't you check the chain without disassembling the front? The gear probably wears out much less than the chain, that is, if the gear is worn out, then the chain can be said to be a complete pipets, which means it would probably rattle, it’s kind of quiet for me, so it’s better not to touch (do not interfere with Japanese technology to work as they say).
